What if everything you’ve been told about succeeding as a graphic designer isn’t actually true?
Massimo Zefferino from The Angry Designer join Jacob Cass & Matt Davies on JUST Branding to challenge 10 deeply ingrained design industry beliefs.
Does good design speak for itself?
Are designers paid to make things?
Should every designer become a strategist?
Do you need thousands of followers to attract clients?
And will AI actually replace graphic designers?
Drawing on decades of agency and design experience, we unpack what’s true, what’s outdated and what’s complete BS.
In this episode:
- Selling the value of design and strategic thinking
- Why more concepts don’t necessarily mean more value
- Creating distinctive brands rather than following competitors
- Moving beyond deliverables into brand stewardship
- The truth about becoming a brand strategist
- Building a creative business without a huge audience
- The difference between knowledge and practical judgement
- AI, design careers and the future of creative work
- Building a reputation through your own point of view
About this guest:
Massimo Zefferino is the co-host of The Angry Designer, a no-bullshit podcast that challenges conventional design advice and explores the realities of building a successful career and business in the creative industry. With over 25 years of experience and a seven-figure design agency under his belt, Massimo brings hard-earned insights, strong opinions and a willingness to challenge industry norms.
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Transcript
Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding. Today, we are putting the design industry on trial. Our guests are Massimo Zefferino and Sean Carlisle, the outspoken voices behind The Angry Designer, a no-bullshit podcast that challenges the advice, assumptions, and industry norms holding designers and brand builders back. Massimo is a creative director and entrepreneur who’s built a seven-figure design agency over 25 years.
While Sean brings the perspective of a practicing designer who’s lived through the everyday realities of clients, careers, and creative work. You may realize that Sean actually isn’t here if you’re watching the video. He was, but he disappeared. Some tech issues, but we are pushing on with Massimo here. Thank you for sticking with us.
I do worry that he is living the brand of The Angry Designer and just went like, he’s fuming right now.
I’m done.
You know what, for those people who know Sean, if he is angry, it would last for about 30 seconds and then he moves on. So he had whiskey in his hand, so he’s doing good. He’s probably sitting in my office right now drinking all the whiskeys.
We’re good. He’ll probably pop in a bit later, folks. Hopefully he will.
Then he might not be the angry designer. Maybe he’ll be the jovial, slightly buzzing, intoxicated designer. Well, that said, cheers, boys.
All right. So what these guys are known for? They’re known for saying what many creatives are thinking, but may be too polite to say out loud. So this conversation today was partly inspired by the recent Brand Builders Summit where I analyze 44 hours of content from 48 different speakers to understand what makes a brand builder irreplaceable in this age of AI. And again and again, the same theme surfaced, that execution is becoming easier while judgment, strategic thinking, distinctiveness and leadership are becoming more valuable. But the design industry is still full of advice that gets repeated so often that it becomes accepted as fact. So today we’re putting in 10 popular design beliefs on trial. For each one, Massimo and the Sean that’s not here must decide whether it’s true, whether it depends, or whether it might be complete BS. So Massimo and Sean, welcome to JUST Branding.
Thank you, sir. I know Sean is in spirit. In spirit, yes. We did elude them due to technical issues. Thank you.
This is the weirdest podcast I’ve ever been on. Just carry on.
All right. It really does happen, right? Thank you, though. Honestly, Matt, you’re pretty cool. But Jacob, I followed you for like 10 years online. Me too. Just creative. I mean, again, I was watching you way before we had the podcast. And again, you were kind of like a celebrity in the office. So when your name popped up, some people in the office were like, I remember that guy back when I was in design school. So thank you for having me. This is kind of really cool.
Well, thank you for that insight. I did not know that. That’s cool. And let’s talk about…
Just to pump up your ego a bit.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
And then bring it back down, surely. That’s my job.
I’m glad that you acknowledged Matt is cool too. All right, let’s start. Look at his beard.
I know. But I’ve got beard envy here. For those of you watching on video, Massimo’s beard is absolutely on point, literally.
Thank you, sir. Thank you. Part of the brand.
All right, let’s start with one of the oldest beliefs in design. Are you ready?
Oh, I’m ready, buddy. I’m ready.
All right. Good design speaks for itself.
Wow. You have to just start right with that. Well, you know what? It’s a myth, I think, because again, you know, these days, I think there’s a misconception of what good design actually is. And, oh, jeez, I think I just kind of contradicted myself here, because if it was actually good design and did what it’s supposed to, then yeah, absolutely, it will make you act, it will make you, it’ll motivate you to take that next step, it’ll actually solve a problem for business. So I think this is almost like a double answer here. You know, it almost depends on what version of design people actually believe. That was a really complicated answer for just a simple question, wasn’t it?
It’s a depends, is it? It’s a depends answer.
Wow, it depends on which version of design you are actually playing. So good design should speak for itself because that’s what design actually is. But unfortunately, past couple decades, people have been obsessed tying design in with just the making side, just the executable, in which that case, sadly, most of those don’t even work on their own. But good design, traditional design, back, forefathers, the Paul Rands of the world and what they were creating, yeah, that stuff works.
I want to jump in. Can I jump in?
Yeah.
You’re right. It does depend on what we’re talking about here. I guess from my experience, I’ve run studios and stuff and I always think, particularly when you’re working with a client and you have to walk a client through work, I think that’s a fairly standard thing, particularly when you’re creating brand identities and stuff. My view is, for what it’s worth, is that it doesn’t just speak on its own, particularly when you’re trying to sell it in and get it adopted. For example, a designer has to justify the decisions. If they can’t, it’s so hard to get work, even if it’s technically good creative work, if they can’t explain why it’s good. I feel like it flops and I work with designers all the time. Sometimes, if I’m being completely honest, I’ve worked with designers who are average, but they can sell the concept, they can walk the client through it, they can explain the brand codes, why it helps the client stand out, why it’s distinctive in the market, why it will support the strategy. It might be an average design. But I’ve also worked with exceptional designers who are terrible at just communicating. I know that they’ve got an awesome concept there and it’s really clever and it’s really smart and it would work in market. But because they can’t sell it, it falls flat. I feel like my position for it is worth, seeing as other show owners are not here, I’m going to just jump in and be controversial. I feel like it’s a joke.
But it’s almost like a joke. If you have to actually explain the joke, is it a good joke? I’m not saying you have to present or pitch your idea, because pitching is part of what we do, and pitching the design isn’t the same as defending the design. So I figure if somebody puts something up there and the clients are like, huh? Then all of a sudden it’s like, no, no, no, hear me out, hear me out. Okay, the reason why you thought that is because of this and this and this. And if you have to do a little bit of convincing, well, that’s great that you can convince the client, but out in the wild, up on a billboard, up in a magazine spread, you don’t have that opportunity to explain. So then going back to that, kind of like the joke analogy, if you have to explain it, is it actually good? So I totally hear you though, I totally hear you.
I think that the difference is the context is internally, you have the brief and you have the problem that you’re trying to solve, but externally, it’s just the communication side of things. So I guess we’re talking about good design speaking for itself. The point that came out of the summit of the analysis, is that a word? Analyzation? That when production…
Sounds good to me.
When production becomes easier, the ability to choose and defend the right direction becomes more valuable. So that was kind of one of the insights from the videos. So it is being able to stand behind your work and talk about it and justify some of it to actually get it across the line with the clients to make sure that it can get out into the world and communicate the right things based on the brief problem that it was solving. So maybe the answer is somewhere in between.
Somewhere in between.
Yeah.
Okay. I’ll live with that.
Okay. All right. It depends. All right. Next one. Designers are paid to make things.
No myth. I mean, again, this is this fight that we’ve been fighting for the past two decades. So when I started in this, it was kind of before this crazy, the crazy online world that we’re living in. Right? And we’ve experienced. And when you had a design project, you know, they didn’t generally come to you and be like, hey, you know, we just need a new logo, make it, make it look great. We, you know, they came to us and said, hey, you know what? Our brand’s lacking. You know, our sales are dropping. People aren’t looking to us anymore for the coolest tech. You know, what’s going on? There were problems that we had to solve. And the value that we bring as designers is all the preparation, the process leading up to the thing that we make, that final executable. I think that if anything, we’re diminishing what we actually do if we just focus on that end result. Problem is, you know, nobody really sees the process before that. Designers these days aren’t selling it that much and they’re not putting value in it. And some of them aren’t even really going down that road. So I think that what a designer brings is deeper than just that end result.
Oh, I 100% agree with that, Massimo. I don’t really do execution work anymore. I’m more sort of strategy-based. But I still, I wouldn’t say this to a client of mine, but like in my head, I’m a designer, right? Like, and I think I’ve thought about this quite a bit. And I think personally, what does a designer have to give the world? Right. And I’ll tell you, I think it’s many things, but mainly this, that we are happy to mentally step into the unknown, right? And visualize things that are not yet a thing, right? So I don’t design like logos and graphic design much anymore, although that’s my background, but I design the companies, I design value, I design experiences, I design, I even design solutions to problems that the company has in their ops team, for example, or in their HR team. But I’m good at going, right, like, you want to solve this problem here, we’re going to produce this new thing here, and here’s the steps that lead up to it. None of which exists right now, but let’s do it together. Let’s work the detail through. I think that’s what designers can and always will bring to the party, a way of creative, imagining a future that’s not there right now.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s the benefit of being a designer. It’s that bigger picture thinking. Customers come to us because we think differently. We approach problems differently. Just like you, we’re not just solving visual problems. When they have a messaging issue, when they have a positioning issue. To your point, the HR issue. Right now, we did a whole campaign for a customer because they’re having HR issues trying to find global talent. So again, it’s like trying to define what that problem is first before we even touch the creative. So it is, it kind of falls in line with that whole people’s misconception of what a designer actually is.
Yeah, I was going to bring that up, Massimo. The misconception is like brand, right? Most people think of brand as the visuals. And when you say designers, you get put in this box. And I agree with Matt, like we design all these things, like experiences and all the things you said. However, when you say designer to someone else externally, they just think of you like a graphics designer. So we have to position ourselves like a consultant or a strategist or whatever crazy term is of the day to communicate that we do more than just design graphics. And that’s why I’m kind of leaning into the idea of brand builder, as in you’re building brands and businesses for others versus just saying you’re a designer. At my heart, I’m also a designer and that’s how I think of myself. But we have to step up and show that we do more than design. And unfortunately, that’s where the definition is right now. Like you’re in that box. It is. It is.
Let’s rebrand that term, gentlemen.
Yes, totally. So the summit insight from this was that we need to make decisions and not just deliverables. So that was the final insight. All right, next one. Great brands should fit their category.
Oh, wow. That’s a tricky one. I’m going to disagree with that because a great brand tends to evolve and a brand generally, you know, it cements an image in somebody’s mind, but based on their experiences, based on what they see, you know, their own, their own relationship with that brand. And then all of a sudden, if that brand, I mean, everybody always says Nike goes from running shoes to now embracing athletic wear, sure, right? I mean, it can carry it on. So again, I think, I think the strength is in the brand, but great brands are also very careful on how far they stray from outside of what they do. So I don’t know. I mean, you said great brand. So I don’t think Nike is going to be slapping their logo on a blender next week.
Yeah, but Nike is going down the toilet at the moment.
Fair enough. Their brand is still worth billions, but I think their operations, you know, the global economy, it’s tanking. So you have a really good point there, of course, you know, but then going over to Apple, going over to Under Armour, who is taking some of Nike’s piece of the market, or Eddie Daz, how did we get on this, this athletics brand topic? I don’t know, but I think it’s the easy one.
It goes from Skinny Sean first.
Yeah, he was looking good, wasn’t he? But I mean, again, you know, you’re right. I mean, but that’s a whole other issue, right? Cause you could be a great brand, but have horrible accounting, have horrible operations. But if you, I mean, look at Zappos. Do you remember Zappos? Did you guys have Zappos down there? I mean, you know, their brand above everything else was customer service first, the best customer service. That’s what they wanted everybody to know. And, oh, we also sell shoes. And so the company unfortunately kind of, you know, dive bombed after a little while, but man, were they known for what they did really well. So I think that’s a different conversation though, between operations and brand. Hmm. Is brand part of operations? I don’t know.
I’d argue it’s all brand, right?
It’s all, yeah.
Unpacking that, it’s, you’re kind of getting that differentiation in a way that, you know, creating difference in a meaningful way is relevant, you know, it’s recognizable. It’s difficult for competitors to kind of replicate, you know, Zappos and the customer service or Amazon and the convenience and, you know, Nike and the, you know, however you want to slice that.
Yeah, the thing is, if you’re positioning yourself on customer service, right, as the best, okay, and that’s your, that’s what you’re hanging your hat on, so to speak, you got to deliver on that every single time. And when you’re not, you need to take it super seriously. And the problem with something like that is that other people can up their game in the market so that your, I guess, distinctive position can become less relevant because others are like, yeah, well, we do the same, right? We do next day delivery, you know, we do multiple options for you or whatever it might be. So when you sort of secure a market position, you need to kind of keep pushing it. It’s like I often think of like Volvo, right? Like they’re like, hey, we are the safest car ever. Like they dominated in the 90s, 2000s. Like, I’m not sure they’re sort of dominating that now. But like, why not? Why not keep pushing further? Right. Like, we’re going to create the craziest, safest cars ever. Like, and, you know, they’ve kind of, I think what happens is you stake your claim and then the competitors sort of swarm up and around you. But your job is not to be like sitting back going, well, hey, we’re the safest. Yeah, you’re the safest today, tomorrow, next year. But what will make you the safest in 10 years time, in 20 years time? Like, what does that take? And that’s the bit I think brands kind of miss because that isn’t just then a marketing slogan. That is an innovation, a product question, an operations question, to your point, Massimo. So yeah, that’s my view anyway. But hey.
Do you think it’s possible for a company like Volvo, like to keep that brand going above everything else? I don’t know.
I mean, I think-
Or is it just marketing from that point forward?
I mean, I’d argue it is, but I’d also argue that if you want to continue to leverage that position, it’s not just marketing, right? Because marketing is the end offer that you’re giving to the market, right? So the marketing is the communication and the perception and the communication of that value, and at the moment that they went, say, 90s, 2000s, they were the saf